Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby HO229 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:32 pm

Bill,
When I saw the last photo I instantly thought of a catfish.
With some whiskers and eye details around the gun mount it would be a shoe in for a catfish. :)
Wonder if Saro used the catfish as a reference?
Looks fantastic!
Image

Dave
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HO229
 
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby BillG » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:02 am

Dave the intake is a bit catfish like. In fact, it is actually a bit oversize. I will likely do a more accurate area calc, to see how much the inside diameter could be decreased and be at 100% FSA. If the ID is decreased a bit, then it would look a bit better, but would really not be done primarily for appearance. Creating a larger radius round for the intake lip may increase fan performance, as it is could likely use a larger round according to the intake lip radius formula. I'll have to look up that info.

Covering is not my favorite building task, and the metallic Monokote is not the easiest to apply, with only chrome and some flat colors being more difficult. I've read about some folks complaining lately that it does not work and shrink as well as it used to. I don't need Monokote's high strength for sheet covering, so I'll look into other brands in the future. It's turning out relatively well, but I try to work with sheet sizes as large as possible, to avoid a 1 million seam, patchwork like covering job. Working larger sheets with this covering is not easy, like Coverite Microlite would be.

"Keep it simple stupid" fan access hatch latch. A rod inserts from underneath the cocpit tray, to secure the hatch.
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Second pic of the hatch latch, shown for clarity. Not shown in the pic is a thin .030" foam seal which is glued to the horizontal bottoms of the hatch. This will help seal water, and the remainder of the perimeter fits pretty tightly. I may work something out for a complete seal, if there are any issues with water splashing up there, but I'm not anticipating it.
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Figuring in the remainder of the covering to be applied, I should make 3lbs AUW, which would be 20oz-sq-ft. Things such as light 1/32" wing, aileron, and control surface sheeting were mandatory to make this figure. I'm pleased with the weight, and figuring that the wing loading should be withing reason of the overall size of the plane and power system. Planes like the heavy 33" Eflite Sabre with the same fan system make me feel optimistic, as that tank is around 55oz. :shock: They really fudge the wing area calcs on those ARFs also. A realistic area calc for this plane, taking wingtip rounding into account, is 2.4sq-ft.
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Forging ahead with covering:
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby HO229 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:08 am

Mesmerizing… Bill,
You have me convinced to start tinkering with EDF aircraft. I received a copy of the book “Stuck on the Drawing Board Unbuilt British Aircraft Since 1945” and I think the Saro P192 would be a good starting point :twisted: , I only need a small (micro) brushed EDF fan recommendation
Any thoughts? :?:
(1/2-3/4 inch diameter fan)

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Can't wait to see the Squirt complete!
Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby BillG » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:57 pm

HO229 wrote:Mesmerizing… Bill,
You have me convinced to start tinkering with EDF aircraft. I received a copy of the book “Stuck on the Drawing Board Unbuilt British Aircraft Since 1945” and I think the Saro P192 would be a good starting point :twisted: , I only need a small (micro) brushed EDF fan recommendation
Any thoughts? :?:
(1/2-3/4 inch diameter fan)

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Can't wait to see the Squirt complete!

You would have to be very light, to use brushed fans. You can use a single controller though (although I do that with bl inruners also :D )
I built a small airliner (roughtly 30" span) with brushed GWS EDF50 fans, using the 12v wind of the 12mm brushed motor, ran on 3s. I wouldn't expect it to be reliable over time. The AUW was a bit under 10os offhand. If I were to build using anything other than light foam or covered open frame construction, I would use bl motors. Brushed EDFs are not common, for good reasons.
Toyish looking isn't it. I bashed a Cox Airlifter into an Arado 16-43/19, and had the Cox nose left over, since I cut it off. It went on the airliner. I also had light silver and yellow covering on hand, thus the DHL scheme found for the project. :D
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I would be willing to guess that the twin EDF30 bl fans would almost be as powerful, if not more, using today's commercially available setups. I was remotoring the 10mm EDF30 GWS fan for 12mm Feigao bl motors, a few years back, and flew an A10 and ME262 that were a bit over 20" span and around 7oz AUW with the setup. An 8 fan bl EDF30 B52 would be really cool.
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Both planes use single controllers, with a Tbird6 on the 262. Slightly off-scale ESC cooling duct.
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With the commercially available EDF30 fans today, you would not have to go through this insane procedure.
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby HO229 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:46 pm

Bill,
The spec calls for 24 motors :twisted:

12 per wing... Do you think it would fly at the proper scale using motors like you have used?
(light construction)

Just a shear maddness idea Bill, not something I am willing to consider any time soon... and please forgive me for inserting my maddness in your build.
I am curious of your thoughts on a 24 EDF flying boat... (the madness) The batteries... cannot imagine the size requirements! (always reading about something when I am not tinkering).

Would be a hoot! :D

Cheers
Dave
Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby BillG » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:33 pm

HO229 wrote:Bill,
The spec calls for 24 motors :twisted:

12 per wing... Do you think it would fly at the proper scale using motors like you have used?
(light construction)

Just a shear maddness idea Bill, not something I am willing to consider any time soon... and please forgive me for inserting my maddness in your build.
I am curious of your thoughts on a 24 EDF flying boat... (the madness) The batteries... cannot imagine the size requirements! (always reading about something when I am not tinkering).

Would be a hoot! :D

Cheers
Dave
It would be a hoot with 24 fans! The harmonics would be a symphony. :lol: I always liked the idea of modeling other planes with similar setups, such as the Comet, of just anything out of the ordinary.
The brushed 30mm fans do not have much thrust, but then again if you have enough of them, it may work. I would see no problem with using the brushless fans however, and the cost of controllers such as the 6A Feigao at HK is quite low. The recent assembled 30mm bl fans have considerably more thrust than the custom fans I was building. Offhand, I remember mine having not much over 1oz. I believe folks are reporting around 2oz of thrust with the high kv factory built outrunner setups.

As for multi-fan planes, I found that my 2 twin 30mm jets had considerably more power than my 2 single fan jets, although the wing loading was considerably higher given similar wing areas of all 4 jets. There was more benefit from the added thrust than I expected, given the added weight. The thrust-weight ratio was only slightly greater with the twins, although the difference in performance was night and day. I would have had difficulty controlling either the A10 or ME262 at full throttle. It surprised me, as I was concerned about a 22" ME262 at around 7oz AUW being able to fly at all. In all cases, the thrust-weight ratio was well under 1:2, and they flew.

The wing size requirements would be something as you were thinking, if it were to be reasonably scale. Fitting a 34mm OD fan housing a wing, would call for a large wing. I wish I was one of those depron gurus that can build beautiful planes with the material. I imagine it would have to be light, and that would be difficult to do with wood. If you could produce 1.5oz thrust per fan, or 36oz total, I image a 60" depron plane could be easily built with 1:2 thrust. Sounds like the project would require a good bit of investigating to develop a build spec.

I've been slowly tweaking the fitting at the wing mounts and also corrected the horizontal stabilizer incidence, as it had excessive positive incidence. My plan is to adjust the wing attachment slots such that the desired incidence and dihedral are set. I've moved away from the crude practice of "I'll slide things around to adjust while the epoxy is setting". It's best to index critical fits for alignment, before gluing.
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I mapped out the intake, fan area, and fan swept area (FSA), for an accurate picture of the sizing. The intake duct cross section is constant from the intake to the fan. Image
The intake lip now has a slightly larger radius.
Image
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby Cameraman » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:09 am

Hi Bill,

she really does look like a catfish from that angle!

Regards

Reggie
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby BillG » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:32 pm

Cameraman wrote:Hi Bill,

she really does look like a catfish from that angle!

Regards

Reggie
Better yet, a catfish with a slight smirk. :D
I managed to build up and shape the inlet with a slight error, in relation to the remainder of the fuselage. Oh well, it adds character.
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby BillG » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:49 pm

Still haven't cemented the wings in stone yet, as I haven't given up on thoughts of first using the fuse for a glass mold making plug. May not happen though, as I'm becoming more anxious to see this thing fully assembled.

Considerable time was spent decking the wing mating surfaces for matching dihedral and incidence setting. The model has a bit more dihedral than scale.
Image

Image
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Re: Saro TG263 Insanity, committed and beyond fantasy

Postby HO229 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:24 pm

Still haven't cemented the wings in stone yet, as I haven't given up on thoughts of first using the fuse for a glass mold making plug. May not happen though, as I'm becoming more anxious to see this thing fully assembled.

Considerable time was spent decking the wing mating surfaces for matching dihedral and incidence setting. The model has a bit more dihedral than scale.


look forward to seeing the plug if you jump in the deep end :!:
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