Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

The source for references and discussion on all types & marques of this Grumman amphibian: photos, plans, manual pages & documents.

Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby Rajay » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:39 pm

mdwflyer wrote:The last amendment to the type certificate was 1979. When was note 5 added? Interesting forensic semantics, was it there in 1956? What is Date of manufacture as applicable? Does the airplane have to have engines installed to be manufactured?

Not to try to throw a "monkey wrench" into your "works" but that may not be correct either. The "current" revision of the TC is not actually current because it is no longer "owned" by Gulfstream American Corp. in Savannah, GA - and hasn't been for 35+ years. It has been owned since that time by Frakes Aviation of Cleburne, TX, just like the ones for the Grumman G-21A Goose and G-73 Mallard, although Frakes does absolutely nothing to support any of those types besides the Mallard. I know it for a fact, but the only "evidence" of it is the fact that "control" or oversight of TC 654 and A-734 were transferred from the NY and ATL FAA Aircraft Certification Offices (ACO) respectively to the DFW (TX) ACO years ago, but nobody ever bothered to update the actual TC's to show Frakes' ownership - and that is on Frakes. I think that they did so intentionally to stay "under the radar."

I have to guess that Note 5 was added whenever the very first SCAN Type 30 was in the process of being certified in the US, whenever that was. According to Bill, it could have been as early as 1955, but the only way to tell would be to find all of the earlier versions/revisions of TC A-734 for comparison. (I have most of the earlier versions/revisions of McKinnon's TC 4A24 pertaining to his G-21 series for example, but have not yet gotten that deep into the Widgeon "rabbit hole.")

And finally, when it is a matter of formal certification under, as in this case, 14 CFR Part 21, then it is not just a matter of "semantics"; you can't "manufacture" an aircraft if you are not certified or approved as a "manufacturer" under Part 21 - and if you "build" an airplane without that kind of certification, then you are an "amateur builder" and the aircraft in question is not eligible for anything more than certification under the Experimental category and hence would not be allowed to be used for commercial operations.
Last edited by Rajay on Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby Rajay » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:42 pm

mdwflyer wrote:There's some fast typing going on here :D :D I'm going to the airport to work on mine for a few hours :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Will continue tonight

Mark

Ah, but to paraphrase the great Otto Lilienthal, "to work on a Widgeon is nice, but to FLY it is everything!"
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Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby Rajay » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:02 pm

Speaking of "forensic semantics" the entire text of TC A-734 Note 5 is pasted verbatim below:

NOTE 5. French "SCAN type 30" aircraft, serial numbers 2, 3, 4, 9 through 16, 20 through 23, 25 through 37, and 41 manufactured by Societe' de Construction Airo-Navales, under license to Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation, are eligible for certification when accompanied by a certificated from the French Bureau Verites to the effect that (1) the aircraft was manufactured in exact accordance with the approved drawings listed in Grumman Report 1790B and other technical data which formed the basis of approval of the type design under Civil Air Regulations 04, dated May 31, 1938, as amended by Group 1 revision sheet, dated October 8, 1939, in addition to CAR 4a.193 as amended to April 7, 1950, and that (2) any deviation from the approved design have been evaluated by the Bureau Veritas and found to be equivalent to the pertinent Federal Aviation Agency requirements. Each aircraft shall have a fireproof nameplate installed. The nameplate should include the following data: Manufactured by Societe' Construction Airo-Navales, under license to Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation; Model : SCAN Type 30; Serial Number; as applicable; Date of manufacture; as applicable; Type Certificate No. 734. Each aircraft will be subject to a satisfactory airworthiness inspection and a flight check by an FAA inspector. Aircraft of this type, other than the serial numbers listed above, must be type certificated and imported under the provisions of CAR 10."

Please note that it cites CAR 4 and CAR 10; those "old" Civil Aviation Regulations were superseded by the FARs, specifically Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (i.e. 14 CFR) by the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 which transformed the Civil Aeronautics Authority (CAA) into the Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) - later changed from "Agency" to Administration in 1966 when the FAA became part of the DOT. SO, that means that Note 5 pre-dates 1958, although it may have been revised in 1958 to update and add the reference to the "Federal Aviation Agency" but by that terminology it still certainly pre-dates 1966.
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Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby MrWidgeon » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:29 am

I have a copy of the TC A-734 from the CAA dated Sept. 24, 1954 and Note 5 is essentially the same as it was in the later version differing only in the last sentence.
Where your copy reads "Each aircraft will be subject to a satisfactory airworthiness inspection and a flight check by an FAA inspector. Aircraft of this type, other than the serial numbers listed above, must be type certificated and imported under the provisions of CAR 10.".
My copy reads "Each aircraft will be subject to a satisfactory airworthiness inspection and a flight check by an FAA Civil Aeronautics Administration agent."

...END...

This was part of a very large collection of Mansdorf images and other goodies I recently bought (over 100 photos, slides, negatives etc..) that came from an estate sale in California.
Included was this shot .........
The SCAN factory after production was shut down and all the remaining airplanes prepared for & placed in storage.
I wish there was more of this, but this is the only factory shot in the collection.

Image

What I said earlier is that McKinnon completed or finished those 5 airplanes, not that they built them.
In water flying attitude is everything
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Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby mdwflyer » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:28 am

I hope that one day the ratio of hours worked to hours flown tilts in the proper direction, flying it is everything.

Rajay wrote:
mdwflyer wrote:There's some fast typing going on here :D :D I'm going to the airport to work on mine for a few hours :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Will continue tonight

Mark

Ah, but to paraphrase the great Otto Lilienthal, "to work on a Widgeon is nice, but to FLY it is everything!"


Bill, that's an awesome picture, sorta what I had in mind. I didn't think there would be a firewall and canoes.

It would sure be awesome to have a copy of the french paperwork that came with the airplanes. Somebody must have it in a file somewhere.

Would I buy a SCAN again, yes in a second. Every airplane is unique, just have to make sure the mod status you are looking at matches what you are trying to do.

Mark
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Re: Caveat Emptor! There is no such thing...

Postby MrWidgeon » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:20 am

Glad you like it.
From what I've been told that building is still being used to build Airbus airplanes.
You could try getting one of your French speaking buddies to contact the French equivalent of the FAA/Trans.Can. and see if they have anything on file.
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