Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

The source for references and discussion on all types & marques of this Grumman amphibian: photos, plans, manual pages & documents.

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby MrWidgeon » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:27 pm

Not certain, but I have a strong hunch.
The RCAF used a Red-Orange rescue stripe on their airplanes and it was farther forward on the fuselage than the US had it placed.
If you look through the float struts you can see one there.
Also, there seems to be a an underlying coat of Silver or Aluminum paint on the vertical fin which would also fall in line with RCAF usage.
What I don't know and can't pin down is when the RCAF went to that color scheme and when the Goose was retired from RCAF service.
Just looking at that paint job, it looks like a slap dash over spray that hasn't held up well and shows underlying RCAF traits.
All circumstantial to be sure, but it's all I have to go on.

Bill
In water flying attitude is everything
User avatar
MrWidgeon
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:48 am
Location: Idaho, USA

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby Rajay » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:33 pm

Tony,

The last registered owner of N4762C was Antilles Air Boats in St. Croix, USVI. I have a note that they acquired it from Alaska Coastal-Ellis no later than 1971 and that it is presumed to have been WFU and broken up for scrap no later than October 15, 1981 because that's when it was offically de-registered.

Unlike the fate of so many other AAB aircraft (Gooses and Mallards for that matter) the demise of N4762C must have been deliberate because it came long before the company was literally wiped out by Hurricane Hugo in 1989. Many of the other aircraft in its fleet were never offically or formally de-registered or scrapped (and in fact remain on the FAA registry to this day - although some have eventually "expired") because the company shut down and ceased all operations without bothering with such relatively trivial paperwork at the time.

Proof that it was already being operated by Antilles Air Boats in 1971:
NTSB Identification: MIA72IM024
They ran it out of gas and made a forced landing in the water while flying between San Juan and St. Croix on Sept. 4, 1971.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=62935&key=0

Of course, there's also this from the FAA civil registry:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=4762C

That official FAA record shows a "certificate issue date" (presumably a certificate of registration) of 12/9/69 - December 9, 1969 - indicating that Antilles Air Boats Inc. had it for almost two years prior to the incident in the NTSB report referenced above.

Be that as it may, it still doesn't help us identify the Goose pictured in Sand Point, AK in 1971 with former BLM and ADFG pilot Jim Starkey.
Last edited by Rajay on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Rajay
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: The Southern Part of Heaven

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby Rajay » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:56 pm

Tony,

I'd hazard a guess that you got your information from Eddy Haynes' Goose Central Web site (it also incorrectly shows Alaska Coastal-Ellis Airlines as the last owner of N4762C), but Eddy died more than two years ago. There's another thread under this Grumman G-21 Goose Reference Archive section about Eddy's tragic and premature death. Eddy's Goose Central Web content is now hosted by Chris Bell on his Catalina Goose Web site.

http://grummangoosecentral.homestead.com/index.html

Both versions of the Goose databases, Eddy's original and Chris' copied content, were and continue to be maintained and updated as the owners were/are able, but even though Eddy was and Chris still is just an amateur enthusiast, they did the best they could. I tried a couple of times to get Eddy to correct some info on his site regarding the McKinnon conversions in particular (my specialty) and I've sent the same updates and corrections to Chris, but I have yet to see any of them added to the current online version of Eddy's "Goose Directory".
Rajay
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: The Southern Part of Heaven

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby MrWidgeon » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:49 pm

Tony, the Guidebook says pretty much what's been posted already :

B60 JRF-5 Del. 5-44 USN/RCAF/Surplus BuAer 37807 RCAF 388, N4762.

That's all.

Bill
In water flying attitude is everything
User avatar
MrWidgeon
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:48 am
Location: Idaho, USA

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby Rajay » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:03 am

Remember that the Grumman Guidebook was "written" (i.e. complied and edited) back in the mid-1970's. The Goose fleet in particular has essentially doubled in age since then! There's been a lot more to the histories of those aircraft since then.

Another note: a lot of people either intentionally (or not) abbreviate Grumman serial numbers like "B60" (and in British Commonwealth countries there seems to be a tendency to use a period as in "B.60") but the correct format for a Grumman G-21 series "Goose" aircraft as defined under FAA type certificate no. 654 actually includes a dash as in "B-60". The actual full range of valid serial numbers for Grumman G-21 series aircraft is 1001 through 1200 followed by B-1 through B-145.

The Grumman G-44 series "Widgeon" started while the Goose was already in production and the Widgeons started at serial no. 1201. The basic model G-44 included all Widgeon aircraft from serial no. 1201 through 1400. The G-44A version was built from serial number 1401 through 1476. The French-built SCAN (aka S.C.A.N.) Type 30 versions were essentially license-built copies of the post-war model G-44A built to metric specifications and included serial nos. 1 though 41 - but not all of them are eligible for registration in the US (those that are or are not are detailed in the Notes section of TC A-734.) Also, technically speaking, they were not "built" by Grumman so therefore they are not actually "Grumman" aircraft at all even though that is still how they are usually registered in the US. They are frequently but incorrectly registered and identified as Mfg. = "Grumman" and model = "SCAN Type 30" when they should be identified as Mfg. = "SCAN" and model = "Type 30".

Per 14 CFR 45.13(a) aircraft are properly identified not by who designed them or who owned the type certificate under which they were built, but by who actually "built" them.

The correct serial number format and range for all G-73 Mallard aircraft by way of another example is "J-1" through "J-59" - with the dashes.
Rajay
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: The Southern Part of Heaven

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby Rajay » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:04 pm

Another "bump" for another old thread...

It seems likely that the Goose in question was an actual "state" ADF&G (i.e. Alaska Dept. of Fish & Game) aircraft, but their Web presence and historical records don't seem to be as comprehensive as the "federal" agencies of the US Dept. of the Interior, i.e. the Fish & Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Land Management, who also figured so significantly in the histories of so many Grumman G-21A Goose aircraft.

In any case, I recently came across these other "Jim Starkey" references again and decided this time around to share them here.

From the November-December 1970 issue of the Alaska Dept. of Fish & Game’s "Tails and Trails" magazine/newsletter:

Kodiak Project Salmon Egg Take
By Frank Stefanich, Regional Sport Fish Supervisor, Anchorage

"Three days later the job was completed and 1.2 million fertilized salmon eggs were on their way to Fire Lake hatchery via the ADF&GGoose” piloted by Jim Starkey.

Sport fish personnel participating in the take were Joe Wallis, Fire Lake Hatchery superintendent ; Mike Morgan, hatchery biologist; temporary technician Pete Murray; Fairbanks sport fish biologists Gene Roguski and Steve Tack, and myself
" (i.e. Frank Stefanich.)


Harris Bay Seal and Sea Otter Survey
By Jay Massey, Regional Information Officer, Anchorage

"The weather was just starting to close in the following day when we heard the drone of the Fish & Game Department plane. The pilot, Jim Starkey, picked his way expertly through the rocks as we hurriedly carried supplies down to the beach."

Since Jim Starkey apparently died 10 years ago in 2003, I really have to wonder if any of these other guys mentioned here might still be alive - and able to answer my primary question about the identity of the ADF&G Goose in the photo...
Rajay
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: The Southern Part of Heaven

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby Rajay » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:17 pm

My and "Mr. Widgeon's" friend Guy Denton has been very active of late trying to track down new leads to help us finally identify the Goose in the photo of Jim Starkey at Sandpoint, AK in 1971. Those leads include old Alaska Dept. of Fish & Game contacts to see if there might be anyone still around who remembers the particular Goose or Gooses that Jim Starkey flew for ADF&G. One of those contacts thought that either N7251 or N7811, both of which were former US Fish & Wildlife Service aircraft, could have been the Goose that Jim Starkey flew.

N7251, ex-FWS N725, was s/n B-28, but it apparently crashed near Haines, AK in October 1994. It is rumored to have been salvaged for parts to support the restoration of N88821, s/n 1157, by the Tongass Historical Society in Ketchikan, AK.

N7811, ex-FWS N781, was (and still is) s/n B-122. While being operated in commercial service by Pen Air, it suffered a serious crash in Dutch Harbor, AK in June 2007 during which one wing was broken off. Pen Air initially started repair work on it, but in late 2011 or so, it was sold as a potential restoration project to the Evegreen Air & Space Museum in McMinnville, OR.

By the way, Guy has his own Web site dedicated to all of the various Grumman aircraft, and the pilots who flew them, that once served to connect the wilds of Alaska to the rest of the world. Guy's site can be found here: http://www.wdaguy.com/

In any case, we're still trying to solve this "mystery" and it's always amazing to me when one of us finally stumbles on an answer...
Rajay
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:07 pm
Location: The Southern Part of Heaven

Re: Unidentified Goose - Jim Starkey, Sand Point, AK 1971

Postby MrWidgeon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:08 am

It's STILL a mystery, but I think Guy may be closing in.
By the way, Guy's site is strictly devoted to airplanes that operated on Kodiak Island and vicinity.
It's a great ref. for anyone looking into that area.

Bill
In water flying attitude is everything
User avatar
MrWidgeon
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:48 am
Location: Idaho, USA

Previous

Return to Grumman G-21 Goose Reference Archive



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Help keep this forum ad-free - please Donate


This free, ad-free forum is hosted by ForumLaunch
cron